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cfortunato
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Category: Bankruptcy Law
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Experience:  Bankruptcy professor.
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Home rentals (4) on ARM changes 1Mar2011 to negative $1300

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Home rentals (4) on ARM changes 1Mar2011 to negative $1300 month income.

I got to file Chapter 7 for sure. No one will re-finance business loans like rentals in FL during this recession. I like to file 2Feb because the 1st big payments due 1March. I also have a car and a bike loan to go back as well. I contacted the Car&Bike people and told them I would volunteer to surrender the vehicle to theme without them having to go to civil county court for a default judgement, hire a repro guy etc (Save them maybe 3K) IF THEY AGREE NOT TO FILE A MONETARY JUDGEMENT AGAINST ME BUT ACCEPT THE VEHICLES AND STOP AT THAT POINT. tHE 2D manager IN LINE SAID SHE WANTED ME TO GO TO A BIKE RETAIL SHOP AND A CAR RETAIL DEALER TO GET AN OFFER FOR THE VEHICLES WHICH WILL BE OF COURSE TRADE-IN VALUE HARDLY NOTHING COMPARED TO THERE REAL VALUE. I CAN NOT SELL THEM AT WHAT i OWE EITHER. I AM SENDING A LETTER TO THE BANK THAT HAS THE BIKE AND CAR LOAN TELLING THEM I AM WILLING TO DO THE VOLUNTEER SURRENDER THING TO THEM IF THEY WAVIER THEIR RIGHTS FOR JUDGEMENT AGAINST ME IN THE FUTURE ON THE TWO VEHICLES. i DOT KNOW WHAT THE NEXT LEVEL MANAGEMENT WILLS AY MAYBE MAYBE NOT. MOST LIKELY NOT. BUT REALLY I AM THINKING THAT THEY CAN NOT DOE MUCH RIGHT? I AM 100% FILING CHAPTER 7 2FEB FOR THE 4 HOMES THAT IS NEGATIVE $1300 MONTH INCOME THEN DUE TO THE ARM ADJUSTMENTS ETC SO I WOULD INCLUDE THEM. I BEEN TOLD MY JUST.ANSWER ATTORNEY THAT I CAN INCLUDE THEM AS WELL IN THE CHAPTER 7 EVEN THOUGH THEY BY THAT TIME WILL HAVE A DEFAULT STAGE BUT NOT ENOUGH TIME FOR A JUDGEMENT OF MONEY DIFFERENCE AGAINST ME. I BOUGHT 4 NEW CARS AT SUPER LOW % RATES DUE TO MY 650 FICO SCORE RECENTLY. THIS OF COURSE ADDS MUCH TO MY TOTAL BILLS. SO WHEN I FIGURE IT ALL UP I CAN NOT AFFORD THE HOMES AND THE TWO VEHICLES TO PAY ON THEM AT THIS TIME. HOW IS THE COURT GOING VIEW MY ACTIONS ON ME UTILIZING MY GREAT CREDIT TO BUY 4 CARS WITH .9% INTEREST WITH MY CURRENT CREDIT RATING. I TOLD NO LIES AND THEY TOOK A CREDIT REPORT AND CONTRACTED ME THE 4 NEW CARS ON THE SPOT WHICH I PLAN TO PAY ON COURSE. I FIGURE I GOT THE GREAT CREDIT NOW BUT IN MARCH IT BE GONE SO I AM TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF MY CREDIT NOW BEFORE I HAVE TO FILE ON THE 4 HOMES AND THE TWO VEHICLES. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS 100% A CIVIL MATTER CONTRACT REALLY BILL OF SALE TYPE WITH THEM HOLDING THE TITLE ON THE VEHICLES WHICH HAS A LIEN ON THEM AS WELL AS THE HOMES.
SORTA TRYING TO GET DIFFERENT OPINIONS ON WHO TO HANDLE THE SITUATIONS, I AM 59 NOT WORKING AND AM A 60% DISABLED VETERAN ON A LIMITED INCOME. EVEN IF I DID NOT BUY THE 4 NEW CARS I WOULD HAVE TO FILE CHAPTER 7 BECAUSE I AM UNDER WATER ABOUT 180K ON THE 4 HOMES ALONE AND MAYBE 5K ON THE CAR AND
BIKE. I THOUGHT OF JUST LETTING BOTH THE BANK OF THE BIKE AND CAR (SAME BANK) AND THE SAME MORTGAGE COMPANY OF THE 4 HOMES DUE A DEFAULT FOR THE VEHICLES AND A FORECLOSURE ON THE HOMES BUT I UNDERSTAND THEY MAYA BE ABLE TO TIE A GARNISHMENT AGAINST MY MILITARY RETIREMENT PAY EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT WORKING INCOME. MY VA AND USPS IS DISABILITY PAY SO I KNOW IT IS SAFE. WHAT DO YOU THINK. BIG MESS. AL B PENSACOLA

MY QUESTTIONS IS: WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST WAY TO APPROACH THE COURT ON THIS MATTER IN GENERAL. I BROKE NO CIVILA AND OR CRIMINAL LAWS AS FAR AS I KNOW BUT THE CHAPTER 7 JUDGE DOES NTO HAVE TO APPORVE A CHPATER 7 EVEN IF I SHOW I CAN NTO PAY THE NEGATIVE $1300 MONTH PLUS THE $420 FOR THE TWO VEHCILES. I JSUT LOOKIGN FOR A STRAGETY NOW TO APPROACH THE JUDGE OR HOW AN ATTORNEY USE THE PRIOPERR METHOD TO ASSUE MY CHPTER 7 IS APPROVED. MY INCOEM FNWO IS MOSTLY DISABILITY RETIREMENT VA, DISABILITY SUSPS AND A ARMY RETIREMENT (THAT MAY BE SUBEJCT TO GRANISHMENT BUT NOT SURE) I OF CORUSE DO NTO WANT THAT TO HAPPEN THEN I BE IN DEEPER BIND THAN NOW. MY HOEMS SENT DOWN 30% IN VLAUE AND THE RENT WENT DOWN 25% PAST 3 YEARS AT NO FALUT OF MINE (RECESSION OF HOESM IN FLORIDA NO ONE IN FLORIDA THOUGHT 5 YAEARS AGO THEIR HOEMS WOULD DROP ON AN AVERAGE OF 30% BUT HTYE HAVE SO RELALY TI SI A 60% DROP BECSEU THEY AVERAGE 6% A YAR FOR MANY YARS.
Submitted: 3 years ago.
Category: Bankruptcy Law
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

Hi Customer,

Are you asking if your Bankruptcy petition will be dismissed because you bought 4 cars recently? If so, do you still have all 4 cars?

In addition to the above, is there anything else that you would like to know?

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I still have t he 4 new cars and want to keep them due to the low % rate based upon my excellent credit which I took advantage of. are there any laws civil or criminal that has an area that goes into using your excellent credit at the appropriate time to your advantage and then file chapter 7 . The chapter 7 is due to the 4 homes not the car and motorcycle but those items would be included due to the high interest rate on them vs the new very low rates on the 4 new vehicles I jsut bought..
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

There is no law that says consumers cannot buy what they want, as long as they had the intention - at the time of purchase - of paying the loans for the cars.

If you do file a Bankruptcy, whether or not you would be able to keep the cars would depend on what they are worth (Kelly Blue Book) when you file, and the balance on the car loans.

If it were determined that the cars were purchased with the intention of not paying the car loans, the car loans would not be dischargeable, but the other debts would be, and the Bankruptcy would proceed (it would not be dismissed because you purchased 4 cars with the intention of paying for them).

I think this is what you wanted to know. If not, please let me know.

Thank you!



Edited by cfortunato on 12/3/2010 at 12:36 AM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Very close. I want to keep the new cars due to the super low % rate and I bought them with the full attention of keeping them and paying on them. All the car dealers felt good about the transaction and so did I they viewed my credit report and asked about the rentals and I told them the truth at the present time I am paying the mortgage and have a credit report score of 750 plus. They were satisfied with that.. The older other car and bike was bought like 6 months ago and I have not missed a payment until this month. When i Bought the older car and the older MC I had the attention to continue to pay on them to the end, however things changes and at this time based upon my 4 rentals homes going up$1300 a month or negative $13000 plus maintenance I have to let something go back plus the homes. The older car and MC is the best choice from a finance stand point for me.

My Dau feels I committed fraud by buying the 4 new cars with my excellent credit and then me filing chapter 7 due to the homes and adding in the older car and bike due to not being able to pay them due to the 4 new payments. But Chapter 7 was going to happen regardless of the older car and bike placement on the chapter 7 application or not. I do not feel I committed any civil or criminal law violation maybe bad judgement or bad finance management but no law violation. I used my 750 credit score to the best of my ability while the % rate is super low before they go up and it may be the last time at age 59 I be able to buy my son, dau, wife and I a new vehicle. That is why I did it. what is your though on this. thanks. sorry for the length of the question I will pay a extra fee. I think I should ask the chapter 7 attorney here to list the older car and bike and the homes and keep the 4 new cars, What you think???? this is my concern to keep the new cars and let the older car and bike i bought a while back go back with the 4 rentals homes. BUT I do not want a criminal charge against me or a civil charge for violation of any laws when I feel that I have not violated any at this time but I am not sure on that.
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

There are no criminal charges involved with what you have described. If people could be charged criminally because of what you did (overextending credit-wise), over half the country would be in jail.

The main question - I think - is whether you would be able to keep the cars if you file a Bankruptcy. The answer is you are allowed to keep any assets - including cars - that have little or no equity (usually the case with new cars), and one motor vehicle with up to $1,000 in equity. Florida Stat. 222.25.



Edited by cfortunato on 12/3/2010 at 1:14 AM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I will have no equity at all in the 4 new cars zero, so I should be able to keep the 4 new cars.9WANT TO KEEP THEM OF COURSE DUE TO THE .95 FINANCE CHARGE I AM GETTING BASED AT THE TIME OF MY CREDIT SCORE OF 750) My main concern is not the homes situation it is obvious that if I am 130K under WATER value wise for the homes and losing $1400 a month from rent vs mortgage payments that I would most likely be awarded a chapter 7 on the homes. My concern and we are pin pointing it down great and I really appreciate it so much is the older car and the motorcycle that I WANT TO GO BACK WITH THE 4 HOMES.

Do you foresee a technically on those two things, the older 03 car and the motorcycle are valued no where close to what I owe on them. That is why I want them to go under the chapter 7 due to the value of them and what I owe on them. I owe like 8k or more than the value on them. I did not buy them with the intent of not paying at the time but I got to eliminate payments based on income vs total; output and they are obvious better for me and my family if they go back than the 4 new cars, and my primary home. Does this make any legal sense to you what I am trying to say here? thanks
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Also is there a thing called the means test in which if I have more than the medium US household income that I can not file Chapter 7 even though I am under water on 4 homes and losing $1400 a moth from rent income vs mortgage payments. Heard of it. The means test?????. I thought as long as you can show you can not pay and that Chapter 13 really is not an alternate solution that you can file chapter 7 if needed regardless of your annual pay. I think my annual income now is like $49000 a year. But I can show that chapter 7 is the best legal solution for me a due to the lose of revenue of 16k a year on the homes plus they are 140k or more under water..
I am sorry this is taking so much time and I will ad to your initial amount of payment and provide a very positive feedback thanks
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

If a debtor fails the "Means Test", he cannot file a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy. The Means Test only takes into account the Household Size, Total Household Gross Income, and the source of that income. Most expenses are not taken into account, except for medical expenses.

1) What is your household size?

2) What is the source of your income, and how much comes from each source?

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
two. Retirement income, 18K Army retirement, 18K Disability Retirement Retirement and 12K VA Disability allowance.
No working income at all. Retired 60% disabled Veteran
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
18K is the Army Retirement. 18K is a USPS Disability Retirement and the 12K is a VA Disability Allowance. or around 48K year. two people plus I help my son who is out of the army in college but he is 26. I provide up to $1000 a month for his college things at times.
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

Does the other person in your household have an income? If so, how much?

 



Edited by cfortunato on 12/3/2010 at 2:31 PM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I also like to ad that i was told two different stories on when I can file Chapter 7 if I pass the means test. I think I do it is clsoe. (1) said I had to wait till I was under water both value and rent vs mortgage payment wise and (1) said I could file anytime now even though my payments under the ARM FOR THE 4 HOMES DOES NOT GO UP INTO 1 March (ABOUT $1400) MORE.???????? which IS RIGHT? Both Attorney's in Pensacola fl and two different stories on WHEN I can file. I like to file immediate. Anyone that knows a attorney in the Pensacola area that would take me on now and start the process would be highly appreciated and I think all the experts. I have used this service at least 10times maybe more and it always helps so much. AL B Pensacola fl
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
NO my wife has NO income
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
ANY REFERRALS IN THE PENSACOLA FL AREA FOR ME THAT FILE FOR ME NOW VS Feb????????????????????
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

The Means Test income level for a household of 2 is $49,320, so you would be able to file a Chapter 7.

You should call the Florida Bar Association for a recommendation for a Bankruptcy attorney. The number is (850)(NNN) NNN-NNNN

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
It looks like my gross income including the disability and VA allowance is a total of $50047 or$727 above that amount. Is there any consideration for the fact that most off my income is disability tax free income and disability income about $32000 a year????????? It be a shame not to be able to file due to a $700 overage on the amount under the means test. Are there any known exceptions like disability. I am at 60% VA?????????
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Only the Army retirement is taxable to IRS about 18K
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Also do you mean gross income or net income. Net would be under the means limit for over $1000???????????????????
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

Gross income.

Did you buy your rental houses while you were on active duty?

 

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
no they were bought about 5 or 6 years ago and I paid down like 20%. They are under water 30% in value plus on 1Mar they are under water about $1400 month in rental income vs mortgage payments
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

Do you have substantial medical expenses?

Is your USPS retirement Social Security, or are you covered by the old plan?

Can your son be considered to be part of your household?



Edited by cfortunato on 12/3/2010 at 4:03 PM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I pay $65 month dental insurance and spend about $75 month for RX for me and the wife.

MY USPS retirement is a Disability retirement. I was granted a early retirement due to disability and the pay is based on a disability type pay not a standard retirement for number of years pay. It goes down when I reach 62 when I get my social security Goes down 15% of a normal gross amount for my pay scale when I reach 62. IN otehr words I got back to the normal number of years retirement at age 62 which would be about 15% of gross pay for grade and years vs 40% now
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
My son is living with us and going to full time college . He is 26 though but I still provide more than 50% of his living support. He has a GI Bill for school but ti does nto cover much to be honest. I would say that I pay about 75% of his living expenses right now but he is 26?????
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
I and he have documents to show he is living with us. Bank statements etc.
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

Then are there 3 in your household - you, your wife, and your son? (If your son is away for school, he can still be part of your household.)



Edited by cfortunato on 12/3/2010 at 4:19 PM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Does that increase the means $ total income requirement to allow em to file chapter 7 then? Change from 49300 to??????

YES 3 in the household including my college son who is going to school local in the same city Pensacola
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.
Yes - for a household of 3, the allowable gross income is $53,712. So, you can file.
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
ok i just want to understand it ok. I appreciate your patience on this. MY son age 26 is not a factor to ad him on in as living in my household and WOULD COUNT FOR THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FOR THE MEANS REQUIREMENT RIGHT? $53,712 WHICH IS ABOVE MY GROSS INCOME BY LIKE $3000, THEREFORE MAKING ME ELIGIBLE TO FILE CHAPTER 7 AND MEETING THE FL MEANS TEST OR FEDERAL TEST WHICHEVER APPLIES TO ME IN FL .

I think for dependency for children living in the home is up to 26 if a full time student but this is the IRS requirement does not apply on the Chapter 7 means test. it is based on people living in the household period with no age requirement.

Finally, I was told by two different local attorney's two different things about when I can file. One says now is ok and one said I got to wait to show the court that my homes are currently under water value and income wise. the other attorney said it made no difference. I do not want to pay an attorney up to $2000 and then the court disapprove my Chapter 7 because I filed to early because the loss of revenue effective 1Mar2011. Even though if I file now it may be March before it is settled. What do you think on this matter.

I WANT TO FILE IMMEDIATE AND STOP PRO-LONGING THE THING TO BE HONEST IT IS A STRESSFUL SITUATION
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

You said as of March 2011 your net income from the rental properties would be negative $1300. What is the net rental income now?

 



Edited by cfortunato on 12/3/2010 at 5:01 PM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Well I am under a ARM in which I can pay one of three ways. Min, Interest only and full payment. If I pay interest only I am like even. If I pay the min(Which i have done Because no one thought 5 years ago no one in the world would think the homes in FL would go negative in value much less 30% down) so I elected this payment method and figure I re-finance prior to 03/2011 but I can not due to the under water value of the homes like 35K each I am making like $800 a month so there is a $2200 a month tun-around in income on 1March 2011. I am thinking the chapter 7 will take 90 days so when the court sees the application my income would reflect the negative income of around $1400 due to the ARM adjustment up to way above the rent received (this does not include maintaince for the homes which average $400a month or so on the 4)
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

The Means Test is based on the average gross income for the 6 months before filing. You will not pass the Means Test with the additional income from the rental properties. You have to wait until March 2011 to file.



Edited by cfortunato on 12/3/2010 at 5:22 PM EST
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.
The Means Test is based on the average gross income for the 6 months before filing. You will not pass the Means Test with the additional income from the rental properties. You have to wait until March 2011 to file.


Customer: replied 3 years ago.
OK understand that. How about a court thoughts on me stop paying the Mortgage payment early and the car and bike payments early based on false not accurate legal advise. It is to late now to change that credit if already dropped 100 points now and I have been told that the FL courts is way behind on defaults and final judgments. I can show where most of the extra money has gone i.e. sons school help, etc vs like going to Vegas and blowing it on the tables. Is this or will this action be a problem once I file chapter 7 on 1Mar????????????
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

It is actually a good idea to stop making the payments, because the more you pay, the higher the equity will be. Also, the court will be more likely to see that you cannot afford the payments. However, in general, stopping the payments before you have to will not affect your Bankruptcy petition.

cfortunato, Attorney
Category: Bankruptcy Law
Satisfied Customers: 8023
Experience: Bankruptcy professor.
cfortunato and 4 other Bankruptcy Law Specialists are ready to help you
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ok good deal thanks for working with me. I know I extended the thing out a long time. Thanks again. I used this site at least 10 times and I always get solid advise. Have a Good Christmas. AL Berry Pensacola fl
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

You're welcome!

Thank you for accepting my answer, and for the bonus! And Merry Christimas to you also!

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Just a follow up. If the court considers the gross income for the 6 months prior to filing, would not I have to wait for 6 months after 1Mar (the date I start losing $1400 a month) to file under the means test. The 6 months prior 1Mar I would not have meet the means test for gross income. Or effective 1Mar when I got under $1400 a month they the court only consider that loss as the present situation?
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

You are correct. You have to wait until the average gross monthly income (net gross* for the rental) for the 6 months prior to filing is less than the yearly figure. That means taking the average monthly income for the 6 months prior to filing, and multiplying it by 12, and it also means waiting until 5 or 6 months after March 2011.

*Net gross is the the rent roll minus expenses.



Edited by cfortunato on 12/3/2010 at 10:08 PM EST
Customer: replied 3 years ago.
That is a new ball game. How can I justify to the court that I stop payments on the homes, car and bike in Dec if I can not file Chapter 7 till like Jun 2011????? I would fall very far behind on payments etc.

They will surly foreclose or good chance by then on the homes and take the bike and car and get a judgement on the car and bike for sure by then. So when they demand the $ difference from selling them to the balance I owe then it be much larger when I do file but will the court still entertain the chapter 7 even thought I stop like 6-8 months prior all the payments.
My Dau thanks I should just let them foreclose and repro the car and bike and see what they afterwards (they may just keep it at that status vs going in for a judgement, possible I guess but I think not) then file chapter 7 based on their actions in 6-9 months? what you think. sorta in a pickle really. I for sure can not go $1400 a month negative effective Mar1 and still pay our normal home expenses and etc. any ideals or suggestions. sorry for the follow-up. al
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

You do not justify to the court why you stopped the payments - doing so is your prerogative. It really does not matter if you stop now or if you stop in March. You already know that the homes will foreclose. But since the foreclosure process can easily take years, you can file a Bankruptcy before this happens.

Whether or not you stop paying for the cars, however, depends on whether or not you want to keep them.

Customer: replied 3 years ago.
Ok so really if I file like in Jun 2011 when I think I be under the means test for income the fact that I stopped payments on the 4 homes 6 months earlier is in-material to the chapter 7 filing. I was told several times that foreclosure in FL is min of 6 months and most likely a year or so like you say. I just do not want to be in hot water when the judge reviews my application for the Chapter 7. If the homes are in default or foreclosure I still can file regardless once I meet the means test of income level.

The one car and the one bike that I stopped payments on now will be defaulted on most likely next 15-20 days and the Bank will repro them and then may and most likely will seek a judgement for the difference in the auction price and my loan amount against me and be awarded it., but again the judgement on this amount may be 6 months off and it be about the time I can meet the means test of income and list them also on the chapter 7 application. IS THIS THINKING ACCURATE. If so I fully understand my situation and you are the only attorney of 4 I spoken with on lien or in person that has explained my total problem in a outstanding fashion for a plain person to understand.
Expert:  cfortunato replied 3 years ago.

Yes - the Bankruptcy court does not care about when you stop making the payments. As a matter of fact, if you pay more than a certain amount to any creditor before filing the Bankruptcy, the Bankruptcy trustee can order the creditor to give the money back - to the Trustee.

Foreclosures took around 6 months at one time. Now they are taking years, because the banks are processing so many.

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