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Appliance Tech Dave
Appliance Tech Dave, Home Appliance Technician
Category: Appliance
Satisfied Customers: 2579
Experience:  30 years experience specializing in Whirlpool, KitchenAid and Kenmore
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I have a Whirlpool gas oven gs460LEKT0. It has DSI direct

Customer Question

I have a Whirlpool gas oven gs460LEKT0. It has DSI direct spark ignigiton. The broiler works fine. The oven lights, runs for a minute off for a little while. times vary. The relights runs a minute or less then off. I have no errors or codes. I checked temp probes and 1081 ohms. I am thinking it is either in the control board or in the way tit sensed flame which I believe is through the igniter. (which I replaced last year.
JA: Can you guesstimate how old your Whirlpool is? And just to clarify, what's the exact model?
Customer: Whirlpool Super Gold 465 GS460LEKT0
JA: Do you plan on doing the work yourself?
Customer: yes
JA: Anything else we should know to help you best?
Customer: SN RL4310619 I also replaced the igniter card once
Submitted: 5 months ago.
Category: Appliance
Expert:  Webb-Guy replied 5 months ago.

Hello and welcome to just answer my name is ***** ***** I will be the one to assist you. Lets put this unit into diagnostics mode and see what it tells us.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sm-backend-production-attachments/09001a508020ef4b/Tech%20Sheet%20-%208522648%20-%20Rev%20A.pdf

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Travis, I do not see a diagnostic mode on the tech sheet.
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Travis, There are no error codes.
Expert:  Webb-Guy replied 5 months ago.

ok well that does not help at all. It does sound like a possible control board issue but I would rather have ran a diagnostics versus just saying that. Here are common things that can be tested though.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sm-backend-production-attachments/09001a50803a865c/Service%20Pointer%20-%20W10622771%20(Burner%20May%20Not%20Ignite).pdf

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Interesting, But that is for if there is failure to light. The oven usually lights but does not stay lit. What else?
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
If the burner mounting screws are loose could that impact the flame sensor?
Expert:  Webb-Guy replied 5 months ago.

It could are they loose? This is becoming confusing because the unit will lite just not staying lit which makes you think ignitor or control board but you said ignitor is newish and you have inspected to make sure its not dirty or blocked or disconnected correct?

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
I say the igniter because I believe the control circuit uses the igniter probe to double as a flame sensor as there is not thermocouple to sense flame nor a glow igniter probe to shut down the gas valve if it cools off. Do you know how the flame is sensed?
Expert:  Webb-Guy replied 5 months ago.

http://applianceassistant.com/ServiceManuals/dsi_manual.pdf

Page 9 of this manual will explain that for you.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Not really, it just says it is monitored. It doesn't tell me how it does it and what to test to validate the function. I am trying to determine what is causing the controller to shut off the gas before temperature is reached.
Expert:  Webb-Guy replied 5 months ago.

The board calls for heat

The ignitor is energized with a high voltage charge that creates a spark.

The thermostat closes a circuit, allowing the main gas valve to open.

A flame sensor makes sure the burner has ignited.

The spark igniter shuts off, and the burner continues to run.

When the thermostat is satisfied, the gas valve is de-energized, the burner shuts off and the flame sensor relaxes.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
OK what part is the flame sensor? I don't see one on the circuit drawing or on the parts list. How do you test the flame sensor?
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
I am sorry but I must go to sleep now as I have to e at work in six hours.
Expert:  Webb-Guy replied 5 months ago.

MY apologies yours does not have a flame sensor just the ignitor because yours is a direct spark ignition which is board controlled.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Well that is not true. IF on the first spark, the burner ignites, the igniter stops sparking, if it does not light it will spark a total of two pulse, four times. Somehow it knows that the burner has lit. Otherwise how would it know if the burner did not light and know to close the gas valve, then wait 40 seconds before it tires again. It must have a way to tell or it would not be safe.
Expert:  Webb-Guy replied 5 months ago.

I am not seeing the part separately on the unit so it has to be with something in the board. I will open this up for other techs to see if they may have a better idea.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Thanks, ***** ***** it is confusing, thats why I contacted you guys.
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

Hello, this is Dave. The control knows when the burner light by sensing though the flame to ground. Most time your problem is caused by a weak spot in the brown wire that goes down to the igniter but there are other causes like the burner not grounded properly. Here is a link to a bulletin that goes through many possible causes. Let me know if you can't open the link.

DSI link

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
OK Dave, here is some more info. Last night I removed the oven interior bottom panel and the baffle plate. I removed and cleaned the screw mounting the burner to the chassis. It did not seem to be able to tighten. It is possible I have replaced this screw but I think it is original. It has the same color as the other sheet metal screws looking like brass but is magnetic. It is a sheet metal screw. It does not tightly grab into the chassis. (manifold screw part 23 on manifold drawing). Due to insulation I cannot see the back side of the location.
Another observation is that when I removed the bottom panel and baffle, I ran the oven with the door open to observe the igniter. I ran it for about 10 minutes with no problem. When I closed the door it shut off. Thinking it could be based on thermostat responding to temp, I reinstalled the plates and tried again. It immediately went back to its old ways of short runs and re-starting.
Here is another question.
If the flame sensor did see a loss of flame due to poor connectivity, and shut down the oven, would I get a lockout? Because I am not seeing that?
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

It does lock out after 3 attempts to light but there is no indication on the display. It will still show set temperature. You get 3 tries where there are 4 clicks and pauses in between and then it locks out.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
yesterday I watched it cycle on and off at least 6 times in a row.KR-28 pg 10 LOCKOUT
The control will perform an oven system lockout if:
d) The flame is unexpectedly lost for any reason after being established. NOTE: If this occurs, a lockout condition will occur after 30 seconds with no attempt to reignite.
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

That is correct but the display will still just show the temperature you set. This most often happens if the brown wire is pinched and it sparks to ground somewhere before it gets to the igniter. The pointer link I sent list several other causes you can look for.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
I am leaning to the tech bulletin as a possible cause too. But my question is, if the pinched wire is causing the control to think there is a loss of flame, and shuts down the gas valve, wouldn't it lock out and prevent a restart? Because after 1/2 to 3 minutes it will go thru a start sequence and re-light. It will do this all day long. Does that make sense? If it is locked out I thought it will not relight based on the paragraph from KR-28. Or is the ground of the wire seen as something other than a loss of flame? Perhaps a loss of flame is infinite resistance in the monitoring circuit. A fault on the wire is a low resistance in the monitoring circuit so perhaps it causes a shutdown but not a lock out.
Any thought to the open door closed door response?
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

Lock out is reset by cancelling the oven and starting again. If there are 3 tries in a row where it doesn't light it locks out.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
I understand that. That is why I ask if it shuts down and restarts, all by itself 10 times in a row, can the shutdown be on a loss of flame? I would think it should not relight after one time because of the lockout function.The control will perform an oven system lockout if:
d) The flame is unexpectedly lost for any reason after being established. NOTE: If this occurs, a lockout condition will occur after 30 seconds with no attempt to reignite.
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
The three tries you refer to is if the ignition sequence (four double pulses) are attempted and no flame is sensed, then the stove will lockout.
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

True shutdown only occurs after there are 3 tries in a row of 4 sets of 2 clicks, without the burner lighting. Yes that is correct.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
If flame is lost for 30 seconds, gas valve is closed and lockout occurs.
So IF wire to ground causes a loss of flame, then a lockout should occur.
Because it relights, a lockout is not occurring.
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
if lockout is not occurring, is the shutdown caused by the ignition/flame sensor wire grounding ?
AND why is it only shutting down when I close the door?
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

That is after flame is present. You can test to see if that is what happens by shutting off the gas line to let the flame go out. After a minute turn the gas back on and it should not relight.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Please review and comment on the 3 possible Test procedures:
1) start oven
2) close manual gas valve
3) flame goes out
4) open manual valve
5) wait 5 minutes if it does not restart it is likely locked out
6) increase temp setting wait one minute if it does not restart it is locked out.
7) Reset Lock Out by turning oven Off then On.If the lockout works as expected would it be ok to try this? (I believe this simulates the loss of flame)
1) Start oven
2) Disconnect igniter wire from ignition board
3) Observe shutdown
4) Monitor for restart attempt.
5) If no restart attempt, likely locked outHow about this to simulate fault.
1) start oven
2) attach jumper to ignition lug and momentarily ground to simulate fault in wire.
3) if burner shuts off, then observe restart.
Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Between 11:28 and 11:29 on 11/18/16 I received 3 text messages stating there was a response to review but I don not see any.
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

Sounds okay except that with the igniter wire off you won't know it even tried to light. There will be no sound. Shutting off the gas will work. Make sure you have a good ground at the outlet too.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
OK thanks for your patience Dave. I will run the tests but I may not be able to do it until next week as I am leaving town. Can I follow up then?
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

Yes, I will be out of town and not on the internet all the time. My reply may be delayed. Happy Thanksgiving!

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
You too Dave.
PS
If the oven igniter wire is lifted, and it attempts to restart, the broiler will spark because it is still connected and ignition sequence creates spark at both. So you will be able to hear the start attempt. Plus you will her the bake relay on the control board pick up just before the igniter fires.
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

Worth a try. It should try 3 times with a break in between and then lock out.

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
Interesting testing today Dave.
Started oven and let it run a while.
Closed the manual gas valve.
20 seconds passed then the relay clicked and the electronic gas valve closed
I re-opened the manual valve.
One minute later the oven re-started.
I did this twice to verify.
NOTE: The stove never “Locked Out”I then shut the oven off and then back on.
I lifted the oven igniter lead from the terminal board.
20 seconds after I lifted the lead, the electronic gas valve shut off.I inspected the oven igniter lead in the drawer area. It was not damaged. I pulled it out of the way into the angle of the back bar and tied it there.
Using a thermometer, I adjusted the oven temp using the calibration function. It is now adjusted at +20 deg. This may have corrected the problem. I operated it at 350, 375 and 450 with fair results.
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

The high voltage to the igniter doesn't need much to jump to ground before it get to the igniter tip. It sounds promising that it was jumping somewhere close to the igniter and moving it may have been the answer. Way to go!

Customer: replied 5 months ago.
I noted there is an inch of clearance between broiler igniter and back panel.
Expert:  Appliance Tech Dave replied 5 months ago.

ok