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Bernard S.
Bernard S., HD TV, Large Appliance Sales
Category: Appliance
Satisfied Customers: 1220
Experience:  27 Years Managing Stores, Operations and Selling Appliances
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We have run into a very serious problem at home....our ...

Customer Question

We have run into a very serious problem at home....our Kenmore Front Load Washer HE2 has stopped working only after 2 years of having purchased it! The problem is that the washer does not seem to leave the drain cycle. Initially I thought that the drain pump had been damaged as I found a sock in its filter. After removing the sock, the problem did not go away. I purchased a new drain pump and installed it on my machine. The problem did not go away! I tried adding hot & cold water in the machine. But when I turn the washer on, the water simply gets drained. But the washer also stays permanently in the drain cycle. After a few minutes, the washer stops with diagnostic code F21. (ie: Add a Garment; Rinse; Clothes Clean). This code was the same prior to changing the drain pump.
Submitted: 6 years ago.
Category: Appliance
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

HiCustomer

Thank you for using Just Answer.

Is your drain hose higher than the washer control panel?

Please post your model number so that we can see what you are looking at and check that error code.

bernie

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Reply to Bernard S.'s Post: Hello Bernie.

Thanks so much for your assistance in this matter. The Model number printed inside the door is: 110.46472501 . Type is 831.

On the technician's document, part no.(NNN) NNN-NNNNis printed on every page.

The description of the washer is: Kenmore HE2 Front-Loading Auotmatic Washer. Now, I don't want to confuse you, but there is a number printed on the Owner's Manual and Installation Instructions document. It is:(NNN) NNN-NNNN. Not sure what that is.

Best Regards,
Sami Assaad.
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

Thank you for your patience. I want to be thorough so that we give you the correct information.

Is your washer drain hose higher than the control panel? Please check this.

Is the washer drain hose fitted tightly into your houses drain pipe maybe even taped into it? Please check this.

Please only after you have checked above can you answer these -

Did you test the drain pump before you replaced it?

What test did you do and what were the results?

Why did you decide to replace it or what protocol did you use to decide it should be replace?

Can you tell me if the machine states "made in the Germany" or "made in Mexico"?

The model number shows up ok (at sears listings). There are several different versions that are called Kenmore HE2.

Let me know what you find and we'll take it from there.

bernie

Bernard S., HD TV, Large Appliance Sales
Category: Appliance
Satisfied Customers: 1220
Experience: 27 Years Managing Stores, Operations and Selling Appliances
Bernard S. and 6 other Appliance Specialists are ready to help you
Expert:  The Home Smithy replied 6 years ago.

HiCustomer

When you say that the washer will not come out of drain cycle. Do you mean that the unit will not spin the clothes after the water has drained?

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
That is correct.
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

I had thought you stated you were not able to do a wash? Are you able to washer and drain and there is just not spin?

bernie

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Bernie,

I'm not able to do a wash as the machine is/seems to be continuously draining, even when the water has been drained. There is no spin in this state.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Answers to previous questions:

The washer drain hose is higher than the control panel by about 7 inches.

The washer drain hose is tightly fitted into the house drain pipe. No tape is used. If I take a picture, can I upload it to you?

I didn't test the drain pump prior to replacement as I had no way of doing this. But I now suspect that the old drian pump was good. I still have it.

I decided to replace the drian pump because the technicians manual recommended it...I followed the procedure outlined for trouble-shooting code F21. The procedure indicated to replace the pump if all previous steps failed. So I did. I believed at the time that the drain pump would tell the CPU when it completed the draining cycle. So, I assumed that the drain pump was not able to determine that the water was drained...and as such the drain cycle remained continuous. Unfortunately, it seems that my assumptions were incorrect.

The machine is made in Mexico. Had it been made in Germany, probably would still be working!
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

Ok. Good work. Thank you for your patience.

Two things to consider -

Although you remove the sock from the pump, there may very well be something else that is in the outer basket between the tubs.

The setup on this machine warns that a drain hose that is too tightly fitted into a your drain stack may create a vaccum. If you think this is a possibility, try loosening up the drain hose so that air can get in there also. I'm just trying to be thorough so we eliminate the easier stuff.

I haven't checked the drain pump in the technician manual. However, usually they show a test that will confirm if the pump is bad. I agree with you that the old pump was probably ok.

bernie

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Bernie,

With regards XXXXX XXXXX drain hose....it is very long and a good length fits into the house drain. I had previously played with the hose...ie: pulling it out of the house drain while the machine was running (in this bad state.) But this did not change anything...I'll try again now.

Concerning the outer basket between the tubs...do you mean something may be stuck inside the plastic between the door and the basket? (I'm assuming the basket is the inside of the washer which spins the clothes?) Now I did use a flash light and looked inside that plastic to see if additional clothes could be found. I'll take another look. But maybe I'm not looking in the right place?
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

The drain hose idea would be nice if that turns out to be your problem. I include it only to thorough. I'm not holding out too much hope on this solution. However, there really needs to be a bit of air between the water going in and the drain. You shouldn't have too much going in. The unit only comes with 4 feet? You must have added something.

Your repair manual will show you how to remove the cabinet and further disassemble the machine. I must warn you the further you get on this model the more complicate it really gets.

You can also go back to the pump. Disconnect the boot that goes to the pump and then have someone slowly turn the drum to see if anything comes back toward the pump ... maybe loose change, keys, small hankerchief, under garments, etc.... With a little bit of luck this may yield an easier fix.

If none of this yields a good result, check the repair manual for testing the ECU.

It's 2:37 am here and I will have to go to work in the am. So, I'm signing off. I'll check back with you tomorrow.

bernie

 

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Thanks Bernie...

Same with me...I need some sleep. I'll further dis-assemble the unit tomorrow (actually later today!).

Again...thanks for your time! Catch you later.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Bernie,

I dis-assembled the rubber piece which connects the basket to the drain pump. Unfortunately, I did not find any pieces of clothing. In the rubber there is a plastic ball.(Very light weight). I guess this is used to prevent clothes from entering the drain pump. You were right, this rubber piece is harder to re-install! Its still dis-connected in case you want me to look at it again.

However, there is another connection to this rubber outlet. Seems to be electrical. Could this be a sensor that identifies if the water is drained? If so, I don't know how to remove this without putting it back in its orginial place as a tie-rap is used. I'm afraid of breaking this...so I didn't touch it.

Bernie, I don't know how to test the main circuit board (ECU?). Maybe the issue is with the circuit board...but I would really be surprised..this should last atleast 5-10 years without any problems. And there is no humidity in our laundry room.

I'm starting to get very discouraged. I have 4 children, no washer now for one week....I'm starting to think about buying another and dumping this washer on the Sears floor where I purchased it! And to make matters worst, Sears do not want to send anyone for another 2 weeks! Boy did I get ripped off with this machine. Atleast I have access to purchasing the parts locally.(40 Minutes from my house!)

I'll continue in trying to fix it....your assistance has been much appreciated.

So, any suggestions?

How do I test the ECU?

Best Regards,
Sami.
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

I'm sorry that we haven't found a easy solution to this. I just got in from work. I was not able to check in until now. I know you're disheartened. However, we will find and fix this.

When you removed the rubber accordXXXXX XXXXXke boot that goes to the pump did you also have someone turn the drum slowly to see if something else came around toward the boot? Please do that if you haven't already.

Above you indicated that you have the Service Repair Manual for this machine. There should be a series of tests including those that are diagnostic for the CCU. Are they in your manual?

I can go thru them. However, it's much faster if we can reference what is already there.

However, we need to eliminate two things first.

Please try this. Check that the wiring to the pump that you talk about above is tight and secure and reassemble the rubber boot on to the pump. Take the drain hose out of your house drain stack. Put a large bucket of water on the top of the washer and hold the drain hose at the top of the bucket. You should only have the original drain hose on the machine (approximately 4 feet long). The hose should go up to the top the machine. Unplug the washer. Wait 10 minutes. Plug the washer back in. Have someone start the washer on the shortest wash while you hold the hose. Be prepared to stop the machine if the bucket becomes full.

Let me know what happens when you do this. Please tell me everything that you see.

If nothing has changed, please go to this next -

I would like to you test the pressure switch which is shown is on page 5-2 of the repair manual. This tells the washer that the is water in tub. I'm looking to find your problem quick and not have you buy a part that doesn't fix it.

Let me know if you can't find the pressure switch test and I will get that to you.

If you find it, let me know how the pressure switch tests out.

bernie

 

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Bernie,

I have the technician's manual...not the repair manual that you are refering too as I do not have any pressure switch test in my manual! Sorry! Maybe I can locate it somewhere on the web?

I'm going to perform your drain hose test. I'll provide you feedback once I'm done. But first, I'm going to remove the new drain pump and put back the old one. I'm going to try to get a refund on the new drain pump as it was very expensive ($102.00!).

Concering the pressure switch....I found someone on the internet that had the exact same problem as I did and with the exact same model. They replaced the pressure switch. Here is the link: http://www.applianceblog.com/mainforums/showthread.php?t=6845

But don't worry, I'm not going to jump to conclusions. I'll follow your advise and procedure first.

Thanks Bernie.. I may not be able to reply back till tomorrow as I have lots to do with the washer now!
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

Here is the manual that you need. Try this site and choose the "Free" side. Don't use AOL.

http://rapidshare.com/files/127213988/JustAnswer-WPduetSportREPAIRmanualF01codeONLYonTHIS.pdf

OR you can send an email to ACCLaska@yahoo.com. I will reply with a repair service manual in PDF file format attached to the email. If you have adobe you'll be able to open it. It also will open with some other appilications.

I'm sorry that I thought that you had this. This will make everything much more clear!

bernie

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Wow! Over 22MBytes! I'm downloading it now. Thanks. Do you check your e-mails during the weekend? If not thats fine, I'll wait till Monday for any correspondances.

Thanks Bernie! I'm impressed with your dedication in helping me. We need more sales specialists like you here in Canada!
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Sami,

If the site downloads to you ok you won't have to send the email. That was just a back up in case you weren't able to download.

I will check into this post over the weekend. It depends on how busy we are at the shop.

bernie

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Hi Bernie!

Hope you had a great weekend.

I checked that the wiring to the pump is tight and secure. I reassembled the rubber boot on to the pump (old drain pump!). [ I removed the new pump, cleaned it, emptied the water from it. I'll be returning this pump back and claim that I never installed it. Hope they take it back! ] I took the drain hose out of the house drain stack. Put a large bucket of water on the top of the washer and held the drain hose at the top of the bucket [Original drain hose] . I Unplugged the washer. Waited 10 minutes. Plugged the washer back in. Started the washer on the shortest wash while holding the hose. Well...nothing happened! I placed the hose in the water, took it out, tried all kinds of things....but nothing changed...the washer stays in the drain cycle.

I've disassembled the pressure switch from the unit. Executed the tests outlined on page 5-2 .They all failed except for the Overflow case. But please note that pin 1 is missing...I don't think its being used in my machine. As such, I can't test the "Suds Detect" case.

So...what do you think?

PS: Thanks for this fantastic document! Why didn't Sears provide this to me when we purchased the washer?!!! They probably assume that most people can't repair the unit and its saver that they don't have access to these details! Anyways....


Best Regards,
Sami.
Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Bernie....

Sorry I made a mistake! As I was going through the document, I relaized that the pin numbers are not sequential! My pins are numbered as follows:

Pin 1 --> 14
Pin 2 --> 11
Pin 3 --> 26
Pin 4 --> 21
Pin 5 --> 24
Pin 6 --> 22

Test Results:

Empty [Pins 4 & 6]
Blow: Circuit is Opened
No Blow : 0 ohms.

Suds Detect [Pins 1 & 2]
Blow: 0 ohms
No Blow: Opened.


L1 [Pins 4 & 5]
Blow: 0 ohms
No Blow: Opened.

Overflow [Pins 3 & 4]
Blow: opened
No Blow: opened.

Overall: It looks like "Empty" and "Overflow" are not working properly.

Does this make sense?

Sami
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

Yes, it does make sense. It doesn't know when the tub is empty so it keeps on draining. Just be sure you followed the procedure in the book exactly.

I read the information at the other site and have to believe that it is the pressure switch (especially with the test you just performed).

If you want to be 100% then test the new part at the parts place in front of them before accepting the part! If it tests ok on the pins that were bad on yours it would confirm it. I don't think that they would object to that (they could watch to be sure you don't short the part out).

bernie

 

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Good Idea! I'll test the part at the shop first! I'm going tomorrow to pick it up. Its already reserved. I'll have it installed late in the afternoon. Also, I'm going to try to return the drain pump. I cleaned it, emptied all the water...looks like new again. Any suggestions what I should say in returning it?

Thanks Bernie!
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

I would tell them that you tested the old one and it was ok. What ever else you say is up to you. I'm kind of old school about that stuff. I would tell them I did install it if they asked and take my lumps... but that's me. If the old one is in the same condition that you received it in I would hope that they wouldn't have a problem taking it back.

bernie

Customer: replied 6 years ago.
Hi Bernie.

I went to the Sears Parts & Service store and tested the new Pressure Switch infront of the sales representive. To my surprise, both pressure switches (my broken one and the new one) provided exactly the same results with the ohm meter! (just a small note: The Overflow test results is ; Blow: opened ; No Blow: 0 Ohms. I made a mistake previously typing this!). As such, I had concluded then the problem was not with the pressure switch and that the document is incorrectly presenting the test on page 5-2. However, I decided to take the new pressure switch in hope of a miracle. The store also accepted the return of the drain pump and did not charge me the 20% re-stocking fee!

Bernie, I replaced the pressure switch on my washer and it worked!!!

So....looks like the pressure switch test in the Whirlpool document is not correct. It should be :

Empty
Blow: Circuit is Opened
No Blow : 0 ohms.

Suds Detect
Blow: 0 ohms
No Blow: Opened.


L1
Blow: 0 ohms
No Blow: Opened.

Overflow
Blow: opened
No Blow: 0 ohms.


I guess something else was broken with the pressure switch which could not be tested!

Bernie, thanks for your help with this problem. It was very much appreciated. I learned a lot about the Kenmore Front Loading Washer. I owe you one....(big time)!


PS:
I'm sure will be communicating again!
Keep up the excellent work! We need professionals like yourself on the net!


Best Regards,
Sami Assaad, P.Eng.
Ottawa, Canada.
Expert:  Bernard S. replied 6 years ago.

Hi Sami,

Great work! We knew you would get it done!

What they don't mention in the manual is that there can be a mechanical failure of the part that does not show up on the electrical test!

Thank you for the complement. If you get a chance to put that in the "Feedback" section I would really appreciate it. That's where others get a chance to see the results that of our work.

bernie

 

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